Curse

zakaria · Mar 05, 2007, 07:26 AM // 07:26

is it viable to take whirling axe as cheap adrenaline skill that applies constant pressure on foes (especially kiting monks) with zealous axe and put them in some sort of e-denial ? i know that aegis chains sometimes flooding GvG or HA but i tried in my build to go around it (it's just an example):

Whirling Warrior

Warrior/Assassin
Level: 20

Strength: 9 (8+1)
Axe Mastery: 15 (12+3)
Deadly Arts: 10

[skill]Whirling Axe[/skill][skill]Dismember[/skill][skill]Disrupting Chop[/skill][skill]Enduring Toxin[/skill][skill]Expose Defenses[/skill][skill]Frenzy[/skill][skill]Rush[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

or still Eviscerate > Executioner combo are far more better than whirling axe ?!! discuss

Riotgear · Mar 05, 2007, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Compare:
[skill]Whirling Axe[/skill][skill]Cleave[/skill]

Cleave is about as good as Whirling even without the conditionality, if not better. Using adrenaline skills costs you one strike on everything, which means spamming Whirling Axe causes you to build everything else more slowly.

With the awful 15-second disable, however, there is simply no reason to ever put Whirling Axe on your skill bar unless your name is Geoffer Pain Bringer.

So not only is it worse than Cleave, but Cleave has had difficulty finding its place in the metagame anyway.

Seef II · Mar 05, 2007, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Why use Whirling Axe over Eviscerate? ;\
The +dmg is pretty meager, and if it's for pressure Dragon Slash doesn't black itself out for 15 seconds if blocked.

fenix · Mar 05, 2007, 07:45 AM // 07:45

A major thing is that so many teams have wards or Aegis chains, so you're going to be blocked...ALOT. Which isn't good considering the skill is disabled if you are.

Yanman.be · Mar 05, 2007, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Zealous doesn't steal energy, zakaria. If you think that's the case.

zakaria · Mar 05, 2007, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Why would you use Whirling? Cleave, is better on a spike

cleave @ 15 inflict +30 for 4 strikes
WA @ 15 inflict +20 for 2 strikes
i thought 2 WA hits (+40) > 1 Cleave hit (+30)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

(which means less adrenaline dumping), and it doesn't have the awful conditionality attached.

as far as i know it will be 1..2..WA..1..2..WA, you aren't dumping any adrenaline.

correct me if i am wrong Riotgear in those 2 points that i discuss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by talon

A major thing is that so many teams have wards or Aegis chains, so you're going to be blocked...ALOT. Which isn't good considering the skill is disabled if you are.

that's why i tried to go around its drawback with expose defenses in this example build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

Zealous doesn't steal energy, zakaria. If you think that's the case.

didn't know that

, i thought it works like vampiric upgrade but anyway this build need an axe with zealous to gain energy enough to keep using expose defenses.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 05, 2007, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakaria

i thought 2 WA hits (+40) > 1 Cleave hit (+30)

If you ignore things like the ability to spike, other adrenaline skills, conditionals, and kiting, then yes. +40 over 2 hits > +30 on one hit.
In the actual game, +30 on one hit is much better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakaria

as far as i know it will be 1..2..WA..1..2..WA, you aren't dumping any adrenaline.

Every time you use an adrenaline skill, you're losing one strike of adrenaline on all other adrenaline skills. In your sample build that means it'll take 10 hits to get Dismember charged. This is what he means by dumping adrenaline.
As a warrior you can't afford to reapply Expose as soon as it ends. The energy is simply too much.
I'm also not sure why you have Enduring Toxin in there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakaria

or still Eviscerate > Executioner combo are far more better than whirling axe ?!! discuss

Yes, it is.

Riotgear · Mar 05, 2007, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakaria

you aren't dumping any adrenaline.

Spamming Whirling over and over means you're repeatedly making hits that aren't charging other abilities.

Using WA will count as one strike for its own recharge, so my numbers were off (it's late, I'm making stupid mistakes). But let's say you did:

Hit, WA, Hit, WA, Hit, WA, Hit, WA
vs.
Hit, Hit, Hit, Cleave, Hit, Hit, Hit, Cleave

WA series: +84 damage and 4 strikes of adrenaline on other skills.
Cleave: +62 damage and 6 strikes of adrenaline on other skills.

The extra adrenaline will let you pump out more of various things, but it should be obvious that they're very close. The clincher of course is that Whirling Axe's conditional is TERRIBLE. One block will set you back an extremely long way, and running Expose Defenses (10e on a warrior, yummy) just to even try to avoid it should show that it's a bad skill. I could crunch the numbers some more, but I bet you'd get more DPS by running Cleave with Conjure Phantasm than WA with Expose. :P

As Thomas also pointed out (and as I sort of mentioned in my first post), being able to pack more damage into a single hit also gives you more leverage when spiking. You'll also have more adrenaline for Dismember without running WA.

zakaria · Mar 05, 2007, 09:18 AM // 09:18

so as conclusion this skill is miserably sucks and can't be use in any for of pvp...lol

it just piss me off that eviscerate still in my bar for near 2 years with no chance of changing it to any another elite axe attack..sigh!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

I'm also not sure why you have Enduring Toxin in there.

i thought it's good anti flag runner or for running away ganking sin..

Riotgear · Mar 05, 2007, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakaria

it just piss me off that eviscerate still in my bar for near 2 years with no chance of changing it to any another elite axe attack..sigh!!

Eviscerate is the perfect spike skill: DW, +damage, and lets you keep your adrenaline for a followup. I don't think it's ever going to be dethroned.

Simple +damage elites haven't really seen much play, every pressure attack skill elite works because it lets you pump out OTHER skills on demand as well: Dragon Slash, Moebius Strike and Steady Stance. Compare to, say Cleave and Enraged Smash.

Quote:

i thought it's good anti flag runner or for running away ganking sin..

Sprint/Rush and Bull's Strike. -3 degen is not scary. A warrior beating your face is.

Yanman.be · Mar 05, 2007, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Zealous is a good source of energy, but it doesn't drain the opponent's energy. Use it, if you're ru nning heavy energy bars, and will be attacking often.

tomcruisejr · Mar 06, 2007, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Cyclone Axe + Splinter Weapon > Whirling Axe + Splinter Weapon

Therefore

Cyclone Axe > Whirling Axe

Skuld · Mar 07, 2007, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Whirling Axe has one minor benefit, it triggers strength more often... but as we all know that isn't a redeeming point

Patccmoi · Mar 07, 2007, 02:20 PM // 14:20

I heard that Whirling Axe is actually decent in PvE in areas with no block.

But seriously there's no way an attack skill that gets disabled for 15s if it's blocked is ever gonna make it in PvP. The idea is just stupid. Either they make it SO STRONG if not blocked that you'll have gimmicks using it (like half sacrificing a char to keep Guided Weapon on the attacker), which is lame, or it's just not gonna be used.

I mean, it's fine if it's a SMALL disable (<= 5s) but 15s is just plain retarded. Look at [skill]Quivering Blade[/skill]. Every 4 hits it does up to +42 damage (same as 2 whirling...). It's disabled if blocked for a short duration (4s) BUT it gives you a 8s daze to Plague Touch to compensate.

For example, if they wanted to make Whirling Axe interesting in PvP, they could make it something like:

If Whirling Axe hits, you strike for +5...17 damage. If it is "blocked", your target suffers from a DW/is knocked/is dazed/etc. and Whirling Axe is disabled for 5 seconds

Then you could consider it. Cause it's good DPS, and if they block it then you gain some interesting effect out of it. But this effect can't trigger that often cause the skill is disabled for 5s, meaning that you won't gain adrenaline for that time for Whirling so you'll need at least 8-9s before you can trigger it again (and you lose its ability to DPS if all you do is trigger it).

Until they add an interesting effect if blocked to warrant a SMALL disable, then this skill will never see play in PvP and that's it.

The only kind of effect that i could see being worth up to 10s recharge (never 15s) is something like 'if blocked, target takes 15..63..79 damage and suffers from a DW'. Basically, if they block it they get spiked hard, but your Whirling gets disabled. Kinda add a dilemma on 'should i try to block or not' which can be interesting. If you were DPSing hard on the guy with whirling, they might not be interested in getting an Evis quality spike in the face.

HolyHawk · Mar 07, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Maybe make it interrupt if it blocks; wouldn't be that pwoerfull since you interrupt once and can't charge adrenaline on your own on subsequent hits. Would be interesting to use it over aegis to stop some skill. Remove the disable also, or make it 4/5 seconds, it does little bonus dmg compared to other skills anyway.

twicky_kid · Mar 09, 2007, 07:19 AM // 07:19

I did a lot of testing on whirling axe a long time ago. Pre-evisc nerf evisc won by a few points of dmg. After nerf whirling wins by a land slide. It also wins over cleave. Yes you will use more adrenaline but when you have whirling smacking some one every other hit you really don't need any other attack skill. That allows you to take more energy skills and utility.

The block condition is what holds it back. It will never be used in pvp and especially now that everything is block.

InfernalSuffering · Mar 17, 2007, 03:20 PM // 15:20

I personally love Whirling, it is GOD in PvE....sadly this is a pvp forum so *sigh*. You are all pointing to the obvious downside of Whirling that is it disabled for 15 seconds, and that during that time you cant use it. The thing that you are forgetting is that if it is blocked you cant use anything anyway because they have guardian, aegis, etc on them. I also agree with twicky that if you have Whirling on your bar you are committing yourself to Whirling, you dont carry any other attack skills that require adren. You might bring Crit Chop and/or Prot strike to follow up if you MUST have a resemblance to a spike. This skill combines very well with burst of aggression seeing as you dont lose much adren when it ends. If running a warrior or two with this in gvg I would probably bring a necro carrying [skill]Rigor Mortis[/skill] or some other anti-blocking skill. This skill might be the single greatest PURE PRESSURE warrior skill or even from any character. You just need to get past the blocking, and there are many skills out there that are designed to do just that.

Franco Power · Mar 17, 2007, 03:29 PM // 15:29

The thing is, not only because of the block problem,Expose defenses and Rigor are hexes which can be removed easy.
PURE DPS is not going to get you any kills, you need a spike combo like Evis+Exe, gash+final, devasta+crush, etc, even Dragon Slash is better then this crap.
Also not to mention the 15 seconds disabling thing, and warriors are always being hexed with RH, Spirit of failure, blind, aegis, etc.

To conclude, this skill in PvP is pure garbage.

InfernalSuffering · Mar 17, 2007, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco Power

The thing is, not only because of the block problem,Expose defenses and Rigor are hexes which can be removed easy.
PURE DPS is not going to get you any kills, you need a spike combo like Evis+Exe, gash+final, devasta+crush, etc, even Dragon Slash is better then this crap.
Also not to mention the 15 seconds disabling thing, and warriors are always being hexed with RH, Spirit of failure, blind, aegis, etc.

To conclude, this skill in PvP is pure garbage.

You can and should cover the hexes. While pure dps doesnt get you any kills like spiking does eventually monks will run out of energy if the dps is high enough and then they will collapse. If you actually read what RH, Spirit of failure, and blind did you would notice they all cause you to MISS with attacks and dont BLOCK them. Aegis is specifically countered by expose and rigor...

Symbol · Mar 17, 2007, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Dragon slash is MUCH MUCH better for pressure.